110: Understanding Our Shadow with Donna Lipman and Kathy Hertz - Betsy Pake

110: Understanding Our Shadow with Donna Lipman and Kathy Hertz


Today we continue our conversation with Kathy Hertz and Donna Lipman and get into Shadow work.  We can better understand ourselves and learn to grow in a new way if we can understand what we are trying to hide from the world.

Here’s more about Donna and Kathy:

Donna Lipman Master integrative coach and presentation skills trainer Donna Lipman brings together her commitment to The Resistance with her life coaching and presentation abilities to partner with Kathy Hertz in creating a guide to help navigate the stress of these chaotic political times. Their new book “Beyond Resistance: Coping with the Stress of the Trump Era – An Essential Guide” offers self-care solutions and action-oriented exercises to inspire everyone from political observers to advocates and activists. Donna began her coaching and training career when she was introduced to the work of Debbie Ford. After undergoing extensive study and training with The Ford Institute, Donna became an executive with the organization and is one of only two people who has led the unique and powerful three-day Shadow Process Workshop. When the Institute and JFK University joined forces to provide professional life coach training in the method developed by Ms. Ford, Donna was appointed to lead “Evolution Into Mastery” and other life training programs as a core professor. These programs redefined the profession of life coaching, provided comprehensive training in the methodology, and enabled university students to acquire the knowledge and skills to become leading-edge life coaches while earning their bachelor’s degrees. Donna is a contractor with the University of Texas, training entrepreneurs around the world in the field of presentation skills. She also offers workshops for those desiring to hone their presentation skills or move past the fears that block them from being fully self-expressed. She lives in Austin, Texas with her husband, Tom Parish. When she’s not playing with one of her seven grandchildren, teaching, protesting, writing postcards to elected officials, or supporting the nonprofit organization Challenge Day, you can find her singing with her a cappella group, The Texas Lovebirds. Donna’s motto is, “Every voice matters.” Kathy Hertz proudly calls herself a card-carrying member of The Resistance. With a background in politics, government, and activism, Kathy has experienced and witnessed the enormous impact that unchecked negative internal voices and beliefs can have on lives. Following years of political engagement and activism, she now brings her diverse background together with her life-coaching skills to partner with Donna Lipman and create a roadmap for surviving and thriving during these turbulent political times. Their new book is called “Beyond Resistance: Coping with the Stress of the Trump Era – An Essential Guide.” Kathy Hertz Kathy is a certified life coach through The Ford Institute for Transformational Training as well as a dedicated refugee volunteer and activist. She was recently recognized with the prestigious Point of Light Award from George H.W. Bush’s Points of Light Foundation for her work with refugees on Lesvos, Greece. She is also the recipient of the 2016 Annual Fairfax County Volunteer Service Award for adult volunteer service. Volunteerism and service have been the themes running throughout Kathy’s life. Kathy is a veteran of the Bill Clinton and John Kerry Presidential campaigns. She was Assistant to the Deputy NY State Director during Clinton’s campaign, tasked with organizing and planning a major march in NYC and a letters-to-the-editor campaign. She served as Election Day Volunteer Coordinator for the Kerry Campaign, in addition to taking on various other organizational responsibilities. A career highlight was Kathy’s appointment to the U.S. Department of Defense as a Clinton administration political appointee. She was a public affairs specialist for the Secretary of Defense, William J. Perry, and traveled extensively around the world with him. During her time in the entertainment business, Kathy was part of the management teams of David Bowie and Pat Benatar, among others. Hailing from New York City, Kathy now lives in a suburb of Washington D.C. with her 15-year-old son, Sam, and their 3 beagles: Charlie, Rocky, and Belle.


Welcome to the art of living day. I’m your host, Betsy Pake. And this podcast is designed to share interviews and new ideas to help you redefine what could be possible for your life. Now, let’s go live big. Hey, everybody, welcome back to the show. Now, you know, on Tuesday, I had Donna littman. And Kathy hertz on. And after we finished our conversation, we started talking about a whole new area that we didn’t get into. And, you know, I thought about, could we dub something in and then I thought, let’s re record a new episode on this topic, specifically, because I think it could be really powerful for people. And so Donna and Kathy are back with me today. And we’re talking a little bit about Shadow Work. Hey, ladies, thanks for being back on. Absolutely.

Thank you.

Thank you so much. So on our last episode, you know, we were talking about your new book beyond resistance coping with the stress of the Trump era. And we got talking a little bit after, after our conversation about this shadow work. Can you describe Donna a little bit about what that is,

of course, the shadow was originally discovered by Carl Jung, the great Swiss psychologist. But both Cathy and I were trained by a woman named Debbie Ford. And she took those concepts and she put them into layman’s terms, so that everyone can understand them. And we have a whole chapter in our book beyond resistance, that deals with the shadow, because it’s so important for us to individually understand what makes us tick and what drives us. So the shadow contains all parts of ourselves that we try to hide or deny and suppress. suppress, is the keeper of all the aspects of ourselves that we dislike. I mean, there are light shadows and dark shadows. But mostly we’re talking about the dark shadow here, we judge those qualities in ourselves as unacceptable. And the shadow wears many faces, it’s angry, it’s critical, it’s fearful, controlling selfish, and those are the faces that we don’t want to show to the world. And so it’s Is it something we do unconsciously then that we just hide this part of ourselves? Yes, totally unconscious. And we it’s kind of I like to describe it as a beach ball. You know, when you’re a kid, and you’re in the water at the pool, and you have this nice big beach ball on you, we’re jumping on top of it and trying to keep it under the water. But then somebody takes your attention off of it says, hey, it’s time to come in for lunch now. And what happens to that beach ball? When you don’t?

Right? pops right back up?

Yeah, where does it usually hit you?

right in the face.

A lot of this emanates from when we are children. And we we are we receive messages either overtly or separately from our, you know, our adults that certain parts of us are not acceptable, or that will get in trouble or even in an extreme case, hurt if we are certain things. So, for example, you know, as a child, maybe you, your mother handed or your father gave you a plate of cookies and you at, you know, four years old or like, you grab all the cookies with all your hands, and they say don’t be greedy. And somehow in that moment, you know, doesn’t have an every time they tell you something like that. But it’s in some way at that moment, it lodged into your operating system, oh my god, greed is bad. If I’m greedy, I won’t be loved. I’m not okay. So then that becomes the beach ball that you try to hold underwater, that I can’t be greedy, or something bad will happen.

And so and this is just basically because as little kids we don’t make sense of the world in the same way as we do when we’re adults.

Right? Exactly. But we we call ourselves meaning making machines. Yeah, yeah. Meaning of everything. And as kids perhaps that was a brilliant strategy to protect yourself. You made it mean something about you. So I’m, I’m going to be you know, quiet so I don’t get myself into trouble or I won’t display that particular awful quality. So I am not, you know, in trouble. But we carry that into our lives as adults and subconsciously, it is directing us and moving us in ways that perhaps we don’t want to go and then all of a sudden we do something we think well, why did I do that? What what was behind that?

Yeah. Yeah, we’re we’re sitting in a meeting and then we don’t speak up because we don’t want to be greedy of the time. And when we’re probably not worth the time, and we people won’t like us if we talk, right? So it comes up in like little ways that we might not even recognize Mm hmm.

Go ahead.

Or we’ve learned as children that to,

to state our opinion or to, to speak up makes us bossy or domineering, or obnoxious or whatever. So being afraid of being that we stay quiet. Yeah. All of this is when we all have these beliefs of parts of ourselves that we think are unacceptable. But once with the greedy, for example, what are you going to do if you prove want to prove to the world you’re not greedy, which is what you will be getting to do. It’s not just enough to not be greedy, but you want to prove to the world that you’re not greedy. So there’s lots of different ways that might manifest. But what it does is, it helps we lose our often our ability to be authentically whole in our lives when we’re trying to prove to the world what we are or aren’t. So this is a really important concept for us to find balance and joy and happiness in our lives.

Yeah. So how do you begin to identify what your shadow is? Because chances are, I’m guessing unless people are really introspective, they probably don’t have any idea.

We have a couple of little tips for that. One of the ways that you can find your shadow is to look at what it is that you truly love about yourself. What is it? That is just most wonderful thing about you want to try it, Betsy? Yes.

Because I know I if we met when you were talking, I kept thinking I know the thing. I don’t want anybody to know. Isn’t that weird that I was thinking that. So um, the thing I really love about myself is that I can just start talking, like if you gave me like a couple words, I could come up with like a whole, like 20 minute Facebook Live.

What kind of person what would be the quality of a person who could just do that? I admire that myself.

What would be a quality of that?

What kind of ask you that?

fast on their feet, fast thinker. I guess probably somebody that spends a lot of time thinking so has like, all this information to share.

So fast thinker. Yeah. So what you want to do is look at the opposite of that. What is the opposite?

slip a slow thinker, someone that’s not very smart. Oh, my God, that’s so crazy. Oh, this is good stuff. Because, um, this is so interesting, because that was one of always my things is, am I not very smart. And I never thought I was dumb. Like, I never thought I was dumb. But, um, I remember my mom, because my mother and that didn’t go to college. She went to high school, she didn’t go to college. And I remember her saying that she wasn’t very smart. And so I remember being little and thinking, I must not be very smart. So that is super weird that. Yeah, so is that what it is, is that it’s the opposite, because I kind of cut you off because I got sort of excited because the opposite would be somebody that’s not very swift, right?

Yes. Well, for you, it’s all it’s different for all of us. Right?

Yeah. So can I jump too far ahead? Or was there another?

No, no, not at all. And you want to see that? The opposite is true for you. And the way that you know that that’s a shadow is that it triggers you like Ah, oh my god, if it were written in your local newspaper as a headline, Betsy is what stupid, Betsy is.

Yeah. Isn’t it isn’t clear on our thoughts or

Yeah, any of that kind of person. You always want to look at the quality, what kind of person would not be clear on her thoughts.

Somebody who doesn’t have their act together? Yeah. And that my dad used to always say that get your act together. Apparently, I had trouble getting my act of cancer cuz

I heard that a lot. That’s interesting. So if you write that in the headlines, Betsy Pake just can’t get her act together. How would you feel?

Oh, my God, I’d be like,

I part of me just thought I would feel like maybe that’s true. Oh, maybe that’s true. But then as soon as I thought that I thought that’s not true anymore.

Well, I think that we are everything. If you can see it out there in the world. It’s in us. Yeah. So if we, most of us are so convinced that we’re flawed. We’re inadequate. So we become masters of disguise, and we code of really great lengths to hide our quote unquote bad qualities from people around us and and even from ourselves. We hide them from ourselves.

Yeah. You know, it’s funny because and I wonder if this is a way that I deal with that, like, everybody has that, and everybody deals with it in a different way. But many times I will say out loud, like, I will say to my husband, like, I have to say it out loud. And he’s like, Betsy, you don’t have to go write a Twitter post about it. Like you don’t have to, I don’t know, I have to say it out loud. Like, the thing that’s, I’m struggling right now. And I’ll have to write it out loud. Just say it out loud, or tell somebody or do a Facebook Live and say about how I’m dealing with that struggle, whatever that is. But it is something where I feel like I can’t I don’t want to hide stuff, like I definitely am so open. And, you know, I don’t know if that’s a way of like feeling the shadow and trying to constantly uproot it?

Well, it could be, it could be, I think that a lot of times, our secrets are what make us sick, no. And if you can be open and honest about what’s going on inside of you, you live a fuller life, you know, the result of turning our backs on our dark side is that we live only half a life. And then our dreams are not realized. Or they’re, you know, just buried under years of resignation and shame, we feel so much shame around this. And I think until we make peace with our shadow, and maybe what you’re saying, that’s one way you are attempting to make peace with your shadow, I think we will continue to be at war with ourselves. Unless we do that.

Yeah, and

a lot of us, you know, a lot of this, we have what we call projection, projection and projecting on others. And one way of identifying what a shadow may be for you, is looking at what triggers you in others. So in your case, if you see people that you think are not very smart, perhaps that really bugs you. And it’s not something that you just notice about them. But

it really like

just aggravates you drives you crazy, because that’s a disown quality or a shadow of yours, that it’s bad to be that and you’re trying to hide it from the world. So we can identify a shadow by looking at what triggers US and other people. And then understanding as Donna said that we are all everything, every quality is a part of us and we need to embrace them. So how do you do that? One way, is looking at your life. And where you might have been that or seen that. In my case, I used to get always irritated by people who I thought of as arrogant, I’d go into 711. And if the woman didn’t speak, speak to me the way that I wanted to. And she was a little whatever, I was off to the races, right. So I had to look at where am I? Where am I? Have I been arrogant? Or where could I be arrogant in my life? And more importantly is where could being arrogant serve me so that I don’t need you anymore?

That’s good. That’s key

here to integrating this shadow to accepting this quality is where because all qualities have a positive and a negative aspect of them. Right. And we’re doing something because we think it’s helping us right. So where is first of all, where is it hindering me that I’m not allowing this quality to be a part of my life so me trying not to be arrogant for example, was having me not speak up not on my power not be everything I can be because I didn’t want to be seen as arrogant. Right? Yeah. Um, but again, looking for the gift of it. And allow and, and even just staring in the mirror and over and over is saying, I am arrogant. I am arrogant. I am arrogant until it’s sort of you may have like a little breakthrough is a is a way to kind of get through it too. So those are just little tips of how right Donna Can you think of any little tips?

No, I bet that’s probably the best way is to allow yourself to get flat with the concept. I’m arrogant.

So by get flat, you mean like not have any kind of emotion good or bad about it?

Exactly, exactly. And then the next step is to actually find the gift. Well, so what could be a gift of arrogance. And this is where it becomes a little bit tricky because oh my god, you know, arrogant I could you know, that’s there’s nothing good about being arrogant. But when Could it be useful? Well, maybe if you needed to get something for your child, you know, at school and it just wasn’t happening, you know, so maybe you could use that energy. The arrogance to get you what you need.

Yeah, yeah. I like that to be able to channel what that could bring you.

Yeah. Yeah. So, for example, for me, mean and nasty. I could not be with anybody that was mean and nasty, because that’s what I grew up with. In my household. Yeah. So I was completely the opposite sweet, nice, shy and quiet. But when I grew up, it didn’t get me where I wanted to go. It I was so quiet that I was afraid to say anything. In fact, when I started working with Debbie Ford, maybe, gosh, 18 years ago, I said that I wanted to do what she did. I wanted to train the trainer’s. And she just looked at me and she crossed her arms. And she says, Well, I don’t see it. You don’t say a word. So back then, I began my journey of being able to put two clear sentences together without stumbling all over my words. I was so afraid of making mistakes.

Yeah, yeah. And so really, it was a way of protecting yourself.

Yes, it was. And it was brilliant back then. But not as an adult.

And I think that’s what happens a lot, right, is that we have these strategies that really serve us as kids and serve us maybe even in times as adults. But then we want something more out of our life, or we want to grow, we want to try something new. And this these shadows hold us back. It sounds like right. It’s the thing that constantly pulls us back into our old lives.

Yeah. And that’s when it serves us to let the beach ball up gently. Yeah. splore, as opposed to letting it hit us in the face.

Yeah, yeah. So what guiding it up? Yeah. And, you know, honestly, I think being able to live authentically, is is is one of the keys to balance and joy and equilibrium in our lives doesn’t mean it’s always easy, doesn’t mean we’re always happy. There’s no perfection, but to live authentically, as who you are in this world. And share your authentic gifts. Is that’s that’s happiness.

Yeah. That’s what life.

Yeah. And we’re seeing this being played out in the political arena right now. tired now? Yeah, don’t worry, much projection going on, both on the light side and the dark side. So there are people that you could talk to that would say, No, Donald Trump is the most evil, you know, the most stupid? I mean, there, you name it. Yeah. what’s been said about him? And that perhaps we could look internally and see that this is a shadow for us. Wow, evil. How could I be with evil? Oh, yeah, it was stupid. On the other side, there are people who are projecting their light onto him. And the shadow for them is he’s strong. And he’s, you know, getting things done. Where other presidents couldn’t. And so they’re looking at their shadow, their their light shadow that they can’t be with.

Yeah, that’s so super interesting. Every minds me of that book. The Four Agreements, yes. where he talks about how, you know, you’re, they’re a mirror for you, basically, right? It’s never there.

Yeah. Yep. Yep. Yeah. And that’s what you want to see what your inner struggle is in life. Mm hmm. Look at your outer world. Because your outer world is truly a reflection of your inner world.

To explain more, like expand on that.

So if there are people who are showing up in your life that are mean, will take my example here. mean and nasty, then perhaps that shadow is within me that I have not dealt with that I have not let up gently and explored and integrated and accepted that Oh, that may nasty person out there is me mirroring back to me.

And I haven’t accepted

that part of myself. Exactly. Right. Yeah. Yeah. And so they can really go about starting to um, ladies, I’ve kept you late. I’ve kept them late, you guys, but they’ve been so kind.

It’s no big deal. conversation.

Yeah, I mean, I love you guys. I’m gonna I want you to come and live with me. Okay. So, so Okay, so if people want to learn more about this, they need to get your book. I’m gonna put a link to it in the show notes, but it’s called Beyond resistance coping with the stress of the tribe. era and especially an essential guide. And there’s a whole chapter that goes into this. And really, they can use this on that doesn’t have to be about the Trump era, it can be about any part of their life that they feel like they want to change something or find that shadow, right?

Absolutely. That’s one of the things that we love about our book is that yes, we’re using the political situation right now to, you know, to market our book, however, it can be used in your daily life.

Yeah. And it’s a great teaching moment, because there’s so much emotion around it, right. So everybody has a thought, or dialogue about it. And so it’s really a wonderful way to teach and to learn for yourself in this. So really, this crazy political climate could be a huge opportunity for people to shift their lives and gain like this huge step forward in their outer life because they have really spent time using this at to their advantage.

We like to say Donald Trump is making us great, just not in the way he thought. And he’s Yeah, bringing us awareness and insight into parts of ourselves that we didn’t even know existed. Yeah. But finally, there is one other book I’d like to recommend for people who are interested particularly in shadow, and that is Debbie Ford’s book, dark side of the light chasers, and I’ll link to that too. That is the book that really delves deeply into shadow won’t talk about a lot of the other things we’ve talked about, but um, that’s a fabulous book.

Okay, awesome. Thank you. Is it Yeah, I’ll have to get that one too. Thank you, ladies so much for being on my show. I love you both so much. And this was awesome. And I loved getting to hear you talk and share your wisdom with us. Thank you. Good to see. Thank you. Thanks so much for listening. Remember, you can find me all over social media at Betsy Pake. And, as always, here’s a little message from my husband.

That’s it.


Meet Betsy!

I'm Betsy Pake!

*Ocean obsessed

*Probably hanging out with my dogs


*Deep thinker

Hey There!

About Betsy

Hi I’m Betsy and I’m a subconscious change expert.
By day you can find me digging deep into the unconscious beliefs and identity of my clients so they can move past self-sabotage and lack of confidence and gain traction in their career and life.