019 : Investigating A Course In Miracles (ACIM): Interview with Mike Lemieux - Betsy Pake

019 : Investigating A Course In Miracles (ACIM): Interview with Mike Lemieux

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PODCAST

I invited Mike Lemieux on the show today to talk with us more about A Course in Miracles (ACIM). I have been studying the course for a few months, reading other books about the course and listening to many videos to help me understand more.  It’s a complex though and I thought having someone else on with more experience could help clear things up! I’d encourage you to listen with an open mind and see if there is anything within ACIM that could help you live a Big Life.

Mike is the author of Dude, Where’s my Jesus Fish. You can find it here: www.facebook.com/DWMJF and his other page at: https://www.facebook.com/JDogACIM

He talks about a Youtube ACIM 100 Series. You can find that here: https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLBqBnqiOXzoWXBdtXV8Fgt86u4POgJCWj

We discuss Gary Renard’s book “Disappearance of the Universe”: http://amzn.to/2jeDC4H

You can join our Free Facebook community to talk more about what you heard on today’s show: www.TheArtofLivingBig.com

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Transcript:

My guest today,

I actually found on Twitter.

So I had a subject matter that I wanted to talk to you guys about. But I really didn’t know enough about it. I’m still in the learning phase of it. But I felt like it was interesting enough, and maybe a little different that as you were trying to grow and learn different things, maybe the information would be helpful to you. So I found him on Twitter. And he agreed, really not understanding what I wanted to come on to the podcast today. So it’s an interesting conversation, forgive me because I tried to fill in the blanks in the beginning, maybe a little bit too much. But it’s really in an attempt for myself to understand and to kind of help catch you up. If you’re unfamiliar with this.

So I’m excited to share this interview with you. Thanks for

listening. Here we go.

Welcome to the art of living

big, my name is Betsy Pake entrepreneur, author and personal success coach. This is the show that brings you stories and small ideas to help you live a big life. I hope this once a week podcast will inspire you, motivate you and encourage you to think differently about what could be possible for your life. Thanks for spending some time with me today. No, let’s go live. All right. I have with me today. Mike Lemieux, thank you so much for being here, Mike.

Thank you for having me, Betsy.

So, all right. So I want to tell everybody, I want you to tell everybody a little bit about why I have you on here. But then I’m going to tell my experience with this whole thing and sort of where I’m coming from. It’s all very mysterious now, isn’t it now that I’m saying all this stuff? That doesn’t make any sense? So you tell us about you? And then we’ll get going?

Okay, um, I don’t know why you have me on here though. I’m just some weird guy. So, um, but anyway,

can I find you? What’s that? I said? How did I find you?

I believe on Twitter.

Yeah. Right. So I found you on Twitter. Okay, I can give the recap. If you want. Let me get that way. You’ll you’ll understand you guys. I got Mike on here. He agreed, like blindly, really. So a few probably like two or three months ago, I kept hearing about this book called A Course in Miracles. Now, if you’ve been following along on the podcast, you know that I’ve had some, I don’t even want to say issues because that’s not the right word, but reflection on what role religion plays in my life. And what I’ve really come to the realization is that I’m very, very spiritual. But religion itself wasn’t really a place where I felt like I fit in. Okay, so as I’ve gone through, you know, my journey of trying to kind of figure this all out, I came across, and I kept coming across, I kept hearing about this thing called A Course in Miracles. And so I ordered it and I looked it up. And I’m like, it’s a book like everyone’s talking about, it’s just this book. So I ordered the book. And when I got it, y’all, it’s big. And I am a reader. But this was like a big book. So I stuck it on the shelf. And like six weeks later, I finally cracked it open, and kind of figured out what I was looking at. Now Mike is going to talk a little bit more about what I was looking at. But as I started to study it, I went like, whoa. And so I wanted to have someone on who has been studying this for years, and really has a good understanding. And I found Mike, because he tweets all about it. He has a Facebook page about it, and just has a really good understanding of it. And so I thought, to introduce this to you whether, you know, you can choose to like it or not like it that’s a just like any of my podcasts, but I thought it would be easier and better if I had somebody on who really understood because I’m still learning and I suspect it will take me quite a while before I have a handle on it. Does that. That sounds Right, right, Mike.

Okay.

So tell us a little bit maybe about a course in miracles, how you what you know it to be and sort of maybe how you found it in your journey with it.

Well, to me A Course in Miracles. It’s a spiritual thought system. And it’s written in this biblical style language, but the words have their own meanings. different from what you get from Christianity. Like forgiveness would be the most would be the most obvious example where with Christianity, you’re forgiving people because they really did something and in everything is real and somebody hurt you and all that and of course, miracles saying No, nobody hurt you. You made it all up. Forgiveness recognizes what you thought your brother did to you has occurred. It does not part in a sense, it makes it real sees there was no sin. And in that view, are all your sins forgiven. So if you see people as innocent, it translates into your own unconscious mind, about just about you being innocent. Because how you see others is how you see yourself. So that’s it’s kind of like a mind, a mind program, but the course, it’s not about behavior, like you get a religion, if you’re a good little boy or girl, you get to go to heaven. And if you’re not going to hell, the course is totally different. Like, that’s not it has a biblical language going on, but it’s a totally different meaning.

And I like it. Because when I picked it up at first that I’m gonna say this, but I don’t totally mean this, but that anti religion part of me went like, ah, they’re talking about Jesus and God and like, I when I am spiritual I I talk universe, and about love and acceptance. You know, like, if my daughter came home and she did something wrong, I wouldn’t say like, That’s bad. Go stick your head in the oven for 30 minutes, like I would die idea of hell just seemed like not something that made sense to me. So when I saw all this, I was like, oh, whoa, like is, am I going down the same path? Plus, it’s big, like the Bible and the pages are thin. I was like, What in the fresh hell is this? Like, this is like, a looks like a Bible. So okay, so continue?

Well, I totally get where you’re coming from. I went to Catholic school for nine years as a kid. And once I got out of eighth grade, I want nothing to do with Jesus, or God or any of that, to me, it was all like, crazy talk. I want nothing to do with that. Um, but I didn’t understand at the time that God and religion are mutually exclusive. We’re back then I thought they were the same thing.

Yes, yes. Yes.

Yeah.

And so much about religion, like when, you know, when I, when I talk to people, and they’re very religious, and I respect that I truly do. But many times, I find that they’re only know about their own religion. And to me, that’s just a luck of the draw that you were born in the United States and not in Pakistan, or, like, then you would believe whatever religion you learn there like it, you know, have a great greater understanding. Because if there really is something bigger than it’s not separating us, and I always think of life as everything about life, and I tell my daughter, this is that on one hand, there’s love. And on the other hand, there’s fear. So anything that’s bringing you closer to love is the universe is God is the teaching of Jesus. That’s what I that’s how I interpret it, and I understand it. But if it’s pushing me towards fear, separation, hell, you know, anything like that, then it’s, it’s pulling me away from from the wholeness, right. Is that? Sure. And that was what the gist of what I got the book, that’s where I was like, Okay, this makes sense.

Yeah, um, I was on a spiritual path for quite some time, I’m starting my early 20s, I didn’t mean to become a spiritual person, but it just sort of happened by accident. And then, you know, I, by my early 30s, I felt I had most of the pieces in place, but it was like, still a few loose ends, I still needed to tie up, get tied up. And in 2007, I was introduced to the disappearance of the Universe by Gary Renard, which is, which talks about a course in miracles and explains what the course is really saying, because there’s a lot of books out there about the course. But there is usually some kind of compromise on the integrity of the course. And with the disappearance of the universe, you know, get that you get, you get it straight, whether you like it or not,

does that book like a, like a, like course, for miracles for dummies?

Oh, that’s a good way of putting it Course in Miracles before for my case, of course, miracles for Damascus. Because I wouldn’t have been able to pick up the course book and on my own, and like truly understood what it said I would have thought it was contradicting itself. Because I wouldn’t have understood that there’s stuff in the course that should be taken literally. And there’s stuff in the course that should be taken metaphorically. And a lot of the time, you’ll get course presenters, they’ll take metaphorical statements and make them literal, or they’ll take literal, literal statements and give them their own metaphorical meaning. So you get a lot of confusion out there in the course community. But Gary Gary’s books stay straight with the course they tell you exactly what he’s saying. And they don’t compromise on the integrity of it. one bit.

I’ve heard of his book before and the other book I’ve heard of a lot is Mary Williams. No. even know who I’m talking about. Marianne Williamson and return to love. That book is popular as a synopsis is why.

Um, I forced myself to read that book a few years back because a lot of people thought she was teaching of course, America. And I wrote a pretty lengthy review on Amazon about it. Um, I mean, there’s, I can see how it’s helpful to many people, I will never knock it for that purpose. But to say it’s she’s teaching the same thing. And of course, miracles wouldn’t be accurate.

Oh, interesting. Okay. Okay, so the Gary Renard book is much more in terms of teaching on the text.

Absolutely. So,

tell us we’re like who wrote the book or where this came from?

Can you? Of course,

yeah.

Well, um, there was this research psychologist named Helen schucman, at Columbia University in New York. And she started hearing this voice, and she started taking, she started writing it out with the help of a colleague named Bill Thetford. And this process, I believe, took about seven at least seven years. And

and they argued, like my understanding was that they like hated each other, they work together and hated each other. And finally, one day, he looked at her and said, there has to be a better way. And she said, I agree. And I’m going to find it. And that’s sort of like, was the catalyst or the the hole in the universe that opened up and she said, she started, like, hearing stuff. And so he said, Well, what is it and she told him, like, one paragraph, and he said, I think we got to write it down. And then together, they she just started saying stuff, and he just started writing is that that’s the way I understood it, right?

Yes. And it’s funny cuz they were doing that at work when they were in their normal workplace. And when I wrote my Jesus fish book, most of the writing I did on my book was, or,

really, yeah.

Yeah, got more work on my book, done it at my workplace and at home, sometimes. That’s a whole other story. But getting back to the course, there’s, when I read the disappearance in universe for the first time in 2007, one major thing that I got out of it, and I’m kind of disappointed in myself that I didn’t think of this myself, because I always just assumed that God created the world in the universe. And right on page nine, in the disappears, universes says no, God did not create the duality did not create the world, if he did, he would be the author of a tale told by an idiot. And when I read that, I was like, Whoa, I hadn’t really thought of that. And, again, I was disappointed myself, because why didn’t I ever think of that? Usually, I’m, I’ve always been one to, like, think of things and, and like figure things out for my own, but this one I never thought of. And so I’m like, Okay, I’m gonna have to put that on hold. But later on, in the book, in the dispersing universe, a quote from a Course of Miracles, and it says, God does not forgive because he’d never condemned and there must be condemnation before forgiveness is necessary. And when I read that, it just clicked with the idea that God didn’t create the world. And the idea that God didn’t create the world made perfect sense to me. So basically, we’re just living here in a dream, delusion or hallucination, whatever you want to call it. And the purpose of the course is to train our minds to see the world differently. So we can awaken from that dream illusion. ozonation.

So the course or the Yeah, the book is a course it’s a it’s got like a lesson for every single day. But then there’s also a text that reads to me sort of like a Bible. But if you were a psychiatrist writing a Bible, because the people that wrote it, like it’s coming through Helen’s brain, right, and she sees the world that way. And so there’s this first portion, that’s the text that I feel like I could pick it up at any portion and just read and it will have something for me to think about. It doesn’t necessarily go in order. Would you say? That’s right?

Yeah, fact that if you go to the very beginning of the course, as the 50, miracle principles, and it has its most advanced stuff right at the beginning, so yeah, it’s kind of a not necessarily a linear presentation.

Yeah. And then it’s like a million different ways to explain to you those same things that told you in the beginning, in case you didn’t understand.

So when people still don’t understand it, that’s where the disappearance of the universe comes in.

Yeah, that’s really good. I’m gonna have to get that book to fully to fully get it. So

I would highly recommend I I never tell people to go get a course miracles. If people ask for my advice on something go read the disappearance of the universe, and you take it however you feel you need to from there, if you feel need to continue on with Gary’s books, or the course Go for it. To me, it’s always the disappearance, the universe is the starting point, when people ask me and then they can just feel it away from there.

So I read a book by Alan Cohen called A Course in Miracles Made Easy, which was actually really good sort of recap to get you in the mindset of moving forward. And I’ll link to all these books in the show notes. So people have them. But that was kind of a good synopsis. I thought were kind of gave me the understanding of it. So as I was reading things started to make more sense than if I just picked up the course itself and started reading.

Yeah, I can’t say I’m familiar with that book. But frankly, I’m skeptical of any book that says it’s about the course. You know, this Gary Bernards books I’ve never felt drawn. I don’t know if you’re familiar with Ken wapnick. He was Yeah. Okay.

Yeah, people who that is though, who’s can

use associated with canon Helen, he, he helped with the finalizing of getting the book into print. And he has books of his own. He’s he had a foundation before he passed away his wife, I believe his wife, Gloria still runs it foundation for for a Course of Miracles in Temecula, California. I never personally felt drawn towards for Ken’s works. But I have great appreciation and respect for the man because he did not. From what I can tell compromise on the integrity of the course. And there’s not too many people out there. You can say that about?

Yeah. And he’s a big teacher, or was and now his wife continues, right? With? No, I’ve learned and stuff like that. Yeah,

yeah, I’ve got to be the case by I’ve never followed them that well. So I don’t know for certain.

Now the book was written, like in the 70s. Right, wasn’t it?

Am I wrong? It was in mid to late 60s, where they started taking a where they started writing down what Jesus was telling what Jesus was telling Helen schucman and it was published in I want to, I want to say 75. But I think it was 75.

So that was the voice. The voice coming through was the voice of Jesus.

Yeah, yes.

And so does he say anything good that we need to know. Anything I need to know before I finished this book that’s gonna take me a year?

Well, I as I, if you feel guided to go through the course book, I say go for it. But like I said, I always recommend the disappearance of the universe first, because then you’ll have a better understanding what the course is saying. Because what’s going to happen is people going to pick up the course book and usually

make up their own interpretation of it. Sure, yeah.

And now several people teach on the course, like there’s Gabby Bernstein. That’s very popular. And she teaches on the course, right? Isn’t that sort of the methodology that she comes from? Maybe not perfectly? But

yeah, um, I can’t say I’ve read any of her stuff. But my sense is, she’s just a younger version of Marianne Williamson. But

yeah, yeah.

If it helps people, I feel like that’s a value.

I have no problem with people being helpful where they’re at. But there’s there’s only one correct interpretation of A Course of Miracles. Let’s put it that way.

Okay. So you’re very much a purist of it as it comes through.

Ah, that’s a good way of putting it. Yes.

And so. And so as a purist, when you think about the book, you think about like that the world as we because my understanding is the book is really about

forgiveness, right? It’s teaching you to forgive. Right? But you have to understand what true forgiveness really entails and what it means because it’s not the traditional view of forgiveness.

So really, and I know I’m, I’m breaking it down into something super simple, but like, when I think of forgiveness, I think like, I it would be nice if the person that like, you know, did something that made me angry, apologized, but either way, I just forgive them. But really, the Course in Miracles is saying, There’s no you don’t have to forgive them because they didn’t do anything. It’s all in your head.

Right? So you’re really forgiving the symbolic contents of your own mind because they’re not really there. There’s only one of us here apparently has many in your

keep going.

More.

Yeah, so there’s not like all these people out there. Because of course in miracles teaches there is no world. So that means there’s no world out there. There’s no people out there for us to get upset or upset about that’s why the court says that anger is never justified. Because it’s a world that we made up all the people that are out there aren’t really out there. We we made up these characters in our dream, of course, and some people will take the statement there is no world because of course miracles does say that they’ll make up their own metaphorical meaning for that, but it says there is no world and then it says you know doesn’t leave it to your own devices. It says there is no world this is the central thought this course attempts to teach. So it’s about taking responsibility for our dream. That’s why that’s why I’m what you say a purist. Why. I’m a purist because you make up your own interpretation. It’s not going to get the job done, and I’m not I’m interested in making up my own interpretation because I want to be free. And I know if I leave it to my own ego interpretation, I’m just going to stay stuck in the stream.

So what do you think the purposes of us being here or of us having this experience?

Well, it’s the course calls it hallucination. It says, What if you understood the world as no loose nation? What if you understood you made it up. And if you do understand that, and you can be free to forgiving the images, you see, and then once we are free of the skill, because I haven’t explained about unconscious skill, because what keeps us stuck in this dream, what makes it real is the skill we have, um, which can be traced all the way back from seeming to separate from God. And once we move all the guilt from the mind, which of course in miracles calls the blocks to the awareness of love’s presence in the introduction, and also refers to it as the secret sins and hidden hates we all have, once we remove all that through this application of true forgiveness, which is a lifelong process, or at least a lifelong process. Then we’ll return to our natural state, which is a, which Gary Renard describes as a cosmic orgasm, which is flawless and never ending. It doesn’t. It doesn’t end, it’s permanent. It’s the permanent is our answer to life. In fact, the third book Gary wrote, love is no one subtitle is the answer to life.

So, I was just not talking because I was waiting to see if you were gonna keep going. So okay, no, no, it’s good. So because I feel like I’ve been talking a lot sorry, y’all. So I, I’m, so I’m mesmerized by that. Because I don’t know that that was my full understanding. But of course, like I just started it, which is why I’m interviewing you and not just talking about it myself. So what about then the people that really irritate me? Like, is that and I will say that I have thought, when I get upset with someone else, I do try to think they’re just a mirror. To me, there’s something about myself that I’m not happy with. And that’s what I’m seeing in them. So that thought isn’t totally foreign to me. But, but like, if I was just making them up, I would be like, I would have a lot more money. And I’d be like, living happy. You know, I’d be having some, like, I mean, I have some pretty incredible experiences, but they would be off the chart. So can I create that?

Well, our whole life has already been, it’s already done. It’s not we’re not making it up as we go along. It’s like Albert Einstein said, the past, present, and future all occur simultaneously, which means it’s already all done.

So Oliver Einstein know about this.

Um, I suspect he has some limitations. Um, you probably had to come back, because I don’t think he had all the pieces in place, but he did understand the nature of time. Mm hmm. From what I can tell, um, where was I going with this? lost my train of thought, sorry, I

interrupted you. I was all about why can’t I? Can I make myself rich? Like, can’t I make the can I create the experiences that I want?

Well, you could. It’s possible. It’s in your script to be rich. But it’s also possible. It’s not. But the point of the course is to be happy and at peace, regardless of what’s going on your life. Ah, yeah. Yeah. Because, ultimately, you know, being rich isn’t going to make us happy. It might satisfy us temporarily, but there’s always going to be what’s next, what’s next, what’s next. And with the course once we achieve the goal of the course there is no next there’s just the permanent bliss of heaven, which is the ultimate goal, of course. And that’s very threatening to the ego because every it’s at least to the relinquishment of our individual identity. And even for someone like me, who has a solid intellectual understanding of the course there’s there’s still days where there’s that unconscious resistance to forgive because I know ultimately, it leads to the end of Mikey and I like Mikey but Mikey’s the answer, because it’s, it’s an ego, it’s an individual identity and, and the only way I’m going to be happy in a permanent way is, is to end my individual identity. And it doesn’t mean we have to give it up. Physically, we can still do it. While we appear to be here in bodies, it’s just in our minds, we know that at the end of the day. Forgiveness is the answer and that is going to ultimately result in our the relinquishment of our individual identity. Because a lot of people you’ll have some interpretations the course where people want to glare glamorize the soul, but that’s just a separation idea. Now just keep them stuck.

So when the course talks about ego, it’s not like how I think it’s different than how we typically think of ego.

That’s correct, yes. What how would the course describe our ego, he goes, the thought of having an individual identity separate from God. Um, this idea that we’re, we’re different from everybody. In fact, of course, miracles teaches us that forgiveness is the end of specialness. And that means the the tome is forgiveness. So in that also says that the sole responsibility of the miracle worker is to accept the atonement for himself. So if when you put two and two together, you accept the atonement for yourself, there goes your specialness, which is why there’s a lot of unconscious resistance to really staying true to the integrity of the course in life. So many people make up their own interpretation, because they still want to try and hold a piece of their ego in place and make it real and special and important. But forgive this is, excuse me, of course, miracles is teaching you the opposite, while forgiveness is the end, especially in this and the goal of the course is to return to God. And the only way to do that is through forgiveness. So

So was that tell you about individual identity?

So, the Okay, there is so much that you just said so forgiveness is the key to understanding that we are not separate. But forgiveness is different than we understand forgiveness today,

right? How the world traditionally views forgiveness and how Christianity views. Forgiveness is different from while of course, from how Of course miracles teaches forgiveness,

okay. Okay. So when this is like, it’s very abstract, right? And when I, there’s a lot of people that are Christian that do the Course in Miracles, and like it, but it’s, it doesn’t sound like it’s, I mean, it’s from Jesus. So it is Christian. Right? mean, the confusion, I’m more confused than when we started, which is good. That’s part of understanding.

Well, the Jesus you get from traditional Christianity isn’t the same Jesus, you get a Course of Miracles that are the God for that matter, because the Jesus and God and Christianity is kind of like a mixed bag.

Well, and it’s stories that were told, like for forever, and then finally written down like, long after Jesus was gone, and this text is supposedly, like a, just a dictation of Jesus directly.

Yes, it’s Jesus. Yes. Jesus explaining exactly. Probably wants to say things, because you don’t get that from Christianity.

Yeah, it’s much different. Right? And it doesn’t even say like, does he reference that? How we’re interpreting things in the Bible isn’t right or isn’t understood properly?

He does. Yes. He does elaborate on certain things in the Bible in the course. Absolutely.

Yeah. So okay, so if I am still stuck on, this is what I’m stuck on right now. I’m stuck on I have, because I’m, like, I have control over how my life goes. I have control over whether I see goodness or I see lack. I can see you shaking your head. Nobody else can. But he’s shaking his head, which is giving me some happiness, because it that’s upsetting me because I’m like, No, I have control over that. Like, if I’m focused on crap, I have a bad day. Like I can control that. Right? We always have control of our minds, we can always choose to be happy or be unhappy. That’s true. I would I would say though, the good in the world, the seeming good, the world and the seeming bad. The world neither one a true

because there is no world.

So where are we? Actually, you’re me? I’ve invented you.

Well, we’re not here.

We’re cool. You’re like the cool spiritual side of me.

We’re actually not here, we’re actually still home. And God, in fact, of course says we’re home and God Chima back deck, dreaming of exile, we’re perfectly capable of awakening to reality. Reality. When the course says reality, it’s not talking about you know, getting up every morning and going to our jobs and coming home and you know, eating dinner and going to bed. When the course talks about reality. He’s talking about our totally blissful and natural state of being home with God. And that’s where we really are, but we’re having this nightmare of illusion where Yeah, sometimes it seems like a happy dream, but it’s not always happy. You know, if anytime we suffer in any way. It’s symbolic of being separate from God, even if it’s just a minor hangnail. To someone ignoring you, or I could be ignoring you, or annoying you is what I meant to say. Or you know, getting into a major car accident or something if they’re all the same, because they’re all equally true.

Okay, so I’m gonna say, I’m gonna, I’m gonna preface this with, I’m leaving a spot where I can just delete this out of the podcast if I feel uncomfortable after I’ve said this, but I’m going to tell you a story. And it connects to what you’re saying. So I’m a big meditator. And something that I struggle with that I feel free to say, because I believe I’m not alone. I believe that something I struggle with is something that’s common to many people. And my belief is that it’s maybe common with more women than men. But I could be incorrect about that. But whenever I have an issue, or a problem, or something upsets me, and it’s funny to me that you said, ignoring, but you meant annoying, because, because an ignoring is my thing. If somebody ignores me, I have a really, really like my, any problem I have, I can always go back to. I feel like that I’m not enough to be noticed. So that’s my thing, I’m not enough to be noticed. And so I have found things in my life, that sometimes like I’m a workaholic, or I do, because I am not enough to be noticed. So I could never do enough to be noticed. And I’m a big meditator. And so just recently, like, within the last month or so, I was meditating and I was meditating on that I’m not enough to be noticed, I’m not, you know, I usually set an intention before I do my, my afternoon meditation. And I got this really, really weird feeling as I do many times when I meditate, where I’ll have like, sort of a weird, I don’t want to say out of body experience, because that’s not really, but sometimes I felt different. Like, I felt like my body was different. But I, all of the sudden got this. Like, like, I could hear a voice. I know, this is why I thought I might delete it out. So I could hear a voice in it said, How could you not be enough? We’re the same person. And that’s when I was like, what, hold up Who’s here? Like, what is? And it was like, such a weird moment for me. And then that’s when I thought I gotta go pick up that Course of Miracles via and so it’s really funny to me that you say that because that was my I go back to that now all the time. Whenever I feel like I’m not enough to be noticed, like, Oh, of course I am. Because I’m the same where I’m the same as the universe. I’m God is in me and I am God. So it’s all the same. Would you say that is right?

Yeah. In fact, it reminds me, it reminds me of something that was spoken about in Gary’s disappearance in universe book. Gary talks about Oh, it’s, it’s not so much my concern that I judge others, but when others judge me, and then aren’t in person who are is, who are his teachers in the book, The Disappearance in universe because Gary didn’t necessarily right, the disappearance of the universe is kind of presented to him on a on a silver platter, as he says in, they come back and say, well, there’s nobody really out there to judge you, Gary. It’s your own self judgment that’s being seen outside yourself.

Ah, yeah.

Yeah, so all of those Facebook friends I have. Yeah, not real.

That’s right. But you don’t want to you don’t want to stop there. You don’t want to just see people as illusions, because that’s how it’ll translate into your own mind about yourself that you’re just an illusion. And that’ll just end up with, you’ll just end up with depression. And that’s not good for anybody.

So how do you see it then? Because here’s how I see everybody like when I and I have had times, especially as I’ve just been learning more and studying more about my own spirituality, aside from the Course in Miracles, but as I have found, the Course of Miracles is like, is that we are also connected. And in my meditations, my morning meditation is about me connecting I connect first like, in my mind to everyone in my house, although they’re sleeping, I imagine like my consciousness or my heart, my love everyone in my house. And then I go to my neighborhood, and then I go to my city, and then I go to my state, and I, like imagine myself bigger, bigger, bigger, like as a big blanket. And then I imagined myself, like spinning around the world, like flying overhead, like I go over Africa, and I can see lions and like, we’re all the same, it’s all the same. And then when I go to the grocery store, and I see somebody, I feel like I just like I was like, we were together this morning. Like, I feel like this really strange sense of deep, deep, deep compassion. And so is like, me, what do you think about that?

That’s pretty cool. I mean, that’s

it. That’s it. But is that the like with the course say? Yes, that’s right.

Well, We’re getting back to where I was talking about where you don’t want to see other people as illusions because that’ll just lead to depression. What you want to do is see people how Jesus saw people, and that is being totally innocent and totally worthy of God’s love. Because that’s how translated to your own mind about yourself. And that’s what that will be the only thing that will truly fulfill us in a permanent way.

So if someone has listened to this podcast, and now they’re like, I am more confused than I was before yet intrigued.

I’m doing an awful job if that’s the case.

No, no, but it’s a confusing subject, right? I mean, that’s why I didn’t just talk about it. I wanted to talk with someone who had a better understanding. So where would you say you would say they start with that book with the

universe isn’t real?

Yeah, the disappearance of the universe of the universe. Okay, so I don’t subtitle straight talk about illusions past lives, religion, sex, politics, and the miracles of forgiveness,

you know, I gotta get that I’m gonna read that book this

week. It’s my favorite book ever on this planet. I’ve read it like 18 times.

And so then what and so then from there really, I believe that once you get on a path, like one thing leads to the next like when you’re ready, the next thing will come.

Yes, although for me once I read the disappears, the universe and Gary’s second book your immortal reality, which is subtitled how to break the cycle of birth and death. That was it for me as far as because I was doing the spiritual buffet line for years. And once I read

what do you mean by that spiritual buffet like

oh, you know, I’ve read a little bit of this a little bit of that like a read the self esteem prophecy books, the Neale Donald Walsch, his conversation with Dr. books I was having with Wayne Dyer was a big thing for me. I’ve read and listened to a lot of his stuff. And then I got into I took my spirituality up a notch and read a lot of stuff about ascension and enlightenment. And but it always left me at a place of still not having all the answers. Once I read the disappearance of the universe and your moral reality, I was like, Okay, I’m done. I’m done seeking, it’s just a matter of, it’s just a matter of mastering application. I’ve learned everything I need to learn. It’s just now time to put the pedal to the metal and get my ass home. And do do the work and, and that’s like, I’m done seeking. So that’s what happened with me with the disappearance of the universe.

So how does the work manifest itself for you?

Well, you’ll find that stuff that you stopped sending you or irritate you annoying you, piss you off, depress you, you’ll find those same things that used to trigger you in those ways will no longer do that to you, you’ll find that you’re, you’ll laugh at it, or shrug at it or be at peace about it. And

remember things like joy and

like a calm, it sounds like about life.

Yeah, well, I’ll give you an example. Like, there was this one person in my life that I was intimidated by. And when I started doing this forgiveness work, although I had a different system, because this is before the disappearance of the universe. But it had the same result, because I was still working on the unconscious part of the mind. But it was a more complicated way of doing it. So a guided meditation. I found that by doing this forgiveness work, that this person no longer intimidated me. And on the flip side, I felt like I was doing the same thing to somebody else. And I no longer felt the need to project onto this person anymore. So it was like, it was like this hierarchy going on. Where the person above me in this hierarchy I was no longer intimidated by and I was no longer projecting those that same stuff to the person below me on the hierarchy. So I found myself being at peace with these people instead, there was no there was no feelings of dread or animosity or anything. So the stuff does work you just got to do it.

And so when you say do it when you read the book, The get Gary Renard book, will it tell you like what to do like what steps to take to start having that sort of healing because that sounds really nice. Like I think there’s a lot of people listening that would be like that would you know kick some tail to not be like tweaked out at work because my supervisors a jerk or whatever.

Right? Yeah, um, it definitely explains forgiveness and how to apply it to your life and it does highly recommend that you do the workbook and of course in miracles to get your mind trained because the whole purpose of the workbook is to train your mind to practice true forgiveness. Now it’s theoretically possible to just take the ball and run with it, so to speak. We could just say universe and then do give this work. The workbook

is though, the daily lessons that I was talking about earlier, if anyone’s wondering, as they’re listening, that when you buy the Course in Miracles there, it’s sort of divided into, like three main sections. There’s a text at the beginning. And then there’s a section that’s the workbook for students. And that’s got one day, every day a lesson. And then the last part, is that like a workbook for teachers,

right, Would you say that’s a very good teachers? Yeah. So, but it’s actually five sections in the book. You have song of prayer, and the psychotherapy pamphlet as well.

Yeah. Well, that’s all that’s why I have you on here. So okay, so you get that book, Gary Renard book, Gary Bernards book and then go through the work, the workbook itself is helpful, you feel like,

I know, they highly recommend it. I’ve read through the workbook, but I didn’t do the workbook to the, to the letter of the law, so to speak, I’ve

been doing it and I like set my alarms so that like three times a day, I do the exercises. And so I feel like I’m like I am all doing it exactly the way it’s laid out. And I am liking that, because it’s giving me time to like, really reflect. And I do find that the lesson at the end of the day feels different than it did at the beginning of the day, even though I’ve only spent like three minutes on it. That’s great. Yeah.

Great. Cool.

So all right. So um, so people need to get the Gary’s Gary’s book. And then if they want to also get the course, so they can go through it. I think that’s good to know, you’re gonna be you. I don’t mean to keep I feel like I keep cutting you off. But I also feel like I’ve kept you off a long time. So you’re gonna be able to jump into our Facebook group. And y’all can find that at SS. lb, that stands for start small live, big community.com, that’ll take you right to the Facebook group. Or you can click on the link in the show notes. And you’ll be in there just to answer questions. I know this is sort of a weird, complex. Maybe weird isn’t the right thing. It’s complex, right?

What’s that?

This whole idea?

Well, of course, America says the truth is simple, in fact, is that the message The truth is simple. But we have our ego in the way. In fact, of course, Jesus says in the course miracles, that simplicity is very difficult, but twisted minds. So we got a lot of on twisting to do, because the truth is really simple. The only thing that keeps it from being simple as our ego resistance,

I’m still,

it’s still really confusing to me, I’ll just have to keep learning, I guess, because I’m still very confused. I find peace in it. I like it. Um, some of the concepts that I’ve learned and that I learned from that book of the, the Alan Cohen book, which I actually found really good and part of it. Part of it like didn’t, didn’t, I didn’t like, which I thought meant that it was correct. Do you know what I’m saying? Like, where I went, that can’t be true. And so I thought, well, this must be right. And he must be teaching, like accurately on that part. Because it I really, I resisted it so much. But his examples and stuff, we’re good. So I’m curious to read Gary’s book to kind of compare them but you know, it is kind of an abstract thought for people and I know people are very, like, hooked into their religion and how they believe but I always think learning something new. It doesn’t mean you don’t believe what you believe. It just means you’re learning about another way of thought. And if you’re struggling, you know, if you’re thinking like, I don’t really know, I have felt lost. This may be a place to go because really all it is is is about love.

Would you say that’s right, he’s he’s nodding.

That’s true. God’s love, which is unconditional and unwavering. It’s not special love that we we call love in this world. Which because with special love, you have its counterpart or its opposite, special hate. Because this is a dualistic world. And you always have opposites. So when talks when of course, miracles talks about love, it’s not talking about special love is talking about God’s love.

And special love is the like, You complete me. You complete me, right? That is special love.

Yeah, along those lines. Yep. Yeah.

Cool. Well, thank you so much for being here, Mike. And where can people find you? Where can they find your book? Can you tell them the name of your book and kind of where they can find it?

Sure. My books titled dude was my Jesus fish. Um, it’s available on Amazon. And I have a Facebook page called dude, where’s my Jesus fish and I post daily quotes there from Gary Renard books. And I also love to take pictures. I always post my quotes with a picture I’ve taken notes, scenic views of oceans and lakes and rivers and mountains and stuff like that. And I also have a YouTube channel. get you up Mikey 1974. And I have a right now I have a course in miracles 100 series going on I did part four going to record part five soon. And it’s a six part series. So part five will be out later this month and Part Six next month. And awesome. also manage Gary Bernards public page on Facebook and I post daily quotes on there as well. And that’s Gary Renard on Facebook.

Okay, awesome. I’ll link to all that so people can find it really easy. Joe,

I can send you the link

yet. Yeah, send me all the links, and we’ll get them all posted there. So it makes it easy for everybody, you’re gonna jump in to SS lb community.com and join us in our Facebook group. And I hope this just kind of opened everybody’s eyes or thoughts or hearts to maybe something a little bit different than they may have heard before. And I want to thank you for coming on and kind of helping me do that.

All right. Well, thank you for having me, Betsy.

Thanks for spending some time with us today. Remember to jump in on the online community at SS lB community.com. And, as always, here’s a little message from my husband.

That’s it.

Transcribed by https://otter.ai

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