312: Recognizing the Value of Domestic Labor with Kate Rosenow - Betsy Pake

312: Recognizing the Value of Domestic Labor with Kate Rosenow


Kate Rosenow is a business systems strategist and the owner of Work Well with Kate, where she gives women tools to streamline their businesses so they can be more profitable and less busy. In 2014 she founded Mavenly + Co., an educational platform for women looking to build a business on their own terms. During this time, she realized that the key to designing a sustainable, profitable business was well-built systems, and Work Well with Kate was born.

She has worked with hundreds of women business owners across the country through group workshops, online training, and private coaching to equip them with the resources and mindset they need to build businesses that work for them rather than the other way around. She’s the host of the award-winning weekly Women, Work, and Worth podcast on iTunes. Her insight and advice have been featured in Forbes, Fortune, Real Simple, and Business Insider.

Part of Kate’s most recent endeavor is a children’s book called All Mom’s Work, which is intended to spread the conversation about domestic labor and invisible labor to teach kids that the work it takes to keep a household running is work, and it’s equal to work that is done in an office. In this episode, Betsy and Kate discuss the motivation behind Kate’s book and why it’s so important to have this conversation with children.

* Find Kate on IG @workwellwithkate

* Visit her website: workwellwithkate.com

* Get All Moms Work on Amazon: https://amzn.to/3zZQ4NU

* Connect with Betsy on IG @betsypake


Welcome to the Art of Living big podcast. My name is Betsy pake. I’m an author, a speaker, and a trainer of NLP and hypnotherapy. And I’m focused on helping you understand and design your life with the power of the subconscious. This podcast is designed to help you think differently about what could be possible for your life. Now, let’s go live big. Hello, everyone. Hi, welcome to the show today. Welcome to the Art of Living big. I’m excited today because you don’t have to just listen to me today. I have a friend. I have Kate rose. Now on the show today. Hey, Kate.

Hey, how are ya?

Hey, I’m so good. I’m so excited to have you here. Because you have you do all the things. So can you tell everybody a little bit about you? And what you do?

Absolutely, yeah. Thanks for having me, Betsy. So my kind of LinkedIn title, if you will, the like one that you’ll see on the internet is I’m a Business minimalist and mentor. And that’s kind of a fancy way of saying I help women business owners really simplify and streamline their work so that they can be more profitable and less busy. So that’s the work that I’m doing day in and day out. And by nature of working with a lot of women, I work with a lot of mothers who are juggling business, but also juggling all of these other roles and responsibilities in their life. So part of my most recent endeavor is writing a children’s book called all mom’s work, which is really a conversation about domestic labor and invisible labor, and how so many women are wearing so many hats that are maybe unrecognized. And then also a program called business needs baby. So how do we prep our business for whenever we’re preparing for our family, but also extends to you know, if we have those older children or even children that are out of the house, that doesn’t mean we don’t have responsibilities or things we want to do. And so boundaries and expectations are a huge part of that conversation that I love having with women. And it’s a huge part of that program. So I really kind of blur the lines between helping folks simplify their business, but also allowing their business to be really lifestyle led, and how do we create a business in life that really works for us. And so for me, those two go hand in hand, and they’re not so much separate as like integrated parts of our life holistically.

I love that. And you know, it’s so funny, as you said, like, like, how do we merge or deal with like our lives and babies? But I think you’re so right. Like, I have a 20 year old that moved out of the house and like, I still like shut like she’ll call 10 times while we’re recording. I thought you were grown up and moved out. But now

I feel like I’ve only gotten sometimes needier for my mom, like as I’ve gotten older. So I feel like it’s just a different type of relationship and responsibility and role, but it’s very much like alive and well. And part of like, you know, your daily life that you’re going to have to manage just like you would any other relationship.

Yeah, yeah. You know, I think I found you like years ago. Let’s talk about this for a second how I found you. Have you ever sold something for $27? Yeah. Okay, I buy everything that’s there. If I see something, it’s like, $27 on, like, I think I have to have that. And I think that’s how I found you. Like, yeah, like something. And so I have been following you on Instagram, I think for quite a long time. So I do want to get into some of the processes because I think that structuring and having, like, um, like, like structure and, and processes for things make all things easier, whether it’s your business or your life. But I want to start just by talking about this book on mom’s work. How did you get this idea?

Yeah, it’s really interesting that like, I never set out to write a children’s book, but I kind of realized and experienced during the pandemic, what so many of my clients had articulated to me, but I didn’t have that, you know, experience personally until I had a child, but realizing just how much women take on and work whether their moms are not this kind of invisible labor in our society that is really dependent on women. And I got really frustrated at the idea that like my son might grow up and think that like this stuff I do at home is not considered work all of the tasks and responsibilities like that’s not work just moms businesses work or for women that stay at home or have some other version of labor that those aren’t working people like we never hear the term working dad we just assume like they’re all working.

And there’s no like boss dad. Yes.

It’s like we are like yeah, it’s very gendered in the way that we talk about it which is very frustrating. And so yeah, we never hear boss dad we like I mean, you hear stay at home. I’m glad but it’s more of a like nuanced conversation now. And so I just really got frustrated at the idea that like, so many women, especially during the pandemic are taking on, third, fourth, fifth shifts after all of the work that they do. And the idea that like, culturally, we wouldn’t have a conversation about just how much labor is put on us and how much rest we also need and deserve and require to be functioning humans in society. And so I actually reached out to an illustrator in the Ukraine during the pandemic, and just kind of threw around the idea of like, drawing some pictures and thought it would take a long time. And she just kind of nailed the concept immediately, even with the language barrier barrier. So it was an idea that three months later became a book and was really, it’s funny, because I’m talking to a lot of women about the book. But the irony is like, the audience is pretty much everyone, but women, like let’s talk to our partners about it, let’s talk to our kids about it. Let’s talk to everyone else in society, because I think women inherently know that they’re doing. And it’s really good to be educational, like I really wrote it with the intention of reading it to my son of like, hey, all the other things that these women in your life are doing are considered work. And you need to write such.

Right. Yeah, you know, it’s interesting that I have this conversation in my head a lot. Like, when did this when did we as women decide that we had to do everything, and I think, and I’m a little bit older than you, you guys can’t see her. But she’s young and beautiful. So I am in my. So I am in my 50s. And I remember, like being in the 70s, and my mom talking about women having equal rights, and how she felt like we were setting ourselves up, my mom was a stay at home mom, up until the very end of her life, she got a job when I was in high school. But I think about this a lot. Like we wanted the opportunity to be creative and to have careers and to like, expand ourselves. But we didn’t let go of the duties that we had already. We decided like, I don’t know if you remember this commercial, but I can I can make the bacon, I can fry it up in a pan. And I can never ever let you forget you’re a man, I forget what that was even for. But like, I am not like making I am not doing all three of those things. I will make the bacon some days, I’ll fry it up in a pan, you know what I mean? But like, I’m not doing that every single day. It’s and so there is some point where we as women, I think decided that we had to do that all of that. Do you think that’s shifting now?

I think maybe slowly, but I still hear a lot of conversations about like expectations that are very gendered in terms of like how the household is run. And just even stats like I was reading I think it’s Sheryl Sandberg has report that she doesn’t like women in work every year. And I think that was one where it’s like, actually working moms a lot of time take on more of the responsibility at home. And like there’s all of these stats that are kind of counterintuitive to what you would think might be, quote unquote, equal. And I think that’s the irony is we only talk about equality when it comes to like the workplace or like opportunities, but we don’t talk about it a lot when it comes to like domestic labor and having like a default parent a default, like home manager and who’s taking on that mental load essentially, and realize, yeah, rarely ever split. Like, even if my husband takes my son to the doctor, like if I scheduled the appointment or like when to pick up the prescription like it’s still my responsibility, quote, unquote. And so there’s this great book called fair play that I recommend anyone read if they’re thinking about like their relationships to others, and how it might not be equal in terms of the like, invisible or domestic labor. But I think that that’s something that either isn’t moving quickly enough or is moving at like a glacial pace. And I think yeah, having more conversations like this is so helpful, and having language to articulate what equality actually looks like, because there’s so many women, like you said that are now working in in the workplace. There are very few that flow the other way where like dads are taking on more risk and responsibility in addition to working outside of the home to make that right feel equal.

Yeah, I saw somebody post something the other day and they were like, imagine noticing that the toothpaste is getting low and saying the toothpaste is getting low and then you magically get a tube of toothpaste. Like

literally, it’s Wow. And of course like the crazy thing too is like I’m very fortunate to have a partner that really does want to share the mental load and does do a lot like he’s doing the doctor’s appointment. He’s like, you know, making the next appointment, getting the prescription like bringing the bottle all of that But the great irony is like, you would think everyone in my life thinks he’s like the Tom Brady of parenting because of that, like the things that people would just expect me to do. And if I would be a bad mom, he is like the Lebron James of parenting because he remembered to take a bottle to the doctrine, women. So it’s like, yes, even when the tasks are equal, or like we are sharing them into the load, there’s still this recognition or acknowledgement for folks that aren’t typically in that role that is just not there for women. And so I think that’s part of it. That’s also really frustrating is like, the recognition even from like family members that it’s like this is out of the norm for you to be doing this thing is like perpetuating that cycle of like, this is something extra, this feels like I’m going above and beyond where really it’s like, that’s what I would be doing as the default parent in our household. Like, it’s still not equal in that sense.

Yes, yeah. Yeah, I think that there’s a shift that is happening, because we’re talking about it more. I know, my husband and I are, my daughter has grown, you know, she’s 20. I say grown. But you know what I mean? Like, it’s not like, she’s a little kid. And so she’s not living in our home. And it’s not his daughter, but we’ve been together for 12 years or so. And I noticed probably like the last year, he’s the one that’s like, do we need toilet paper? I’m going to make a Costco run, do we need this I’m going to make and I and I do think that’s because of a shift in the narrative of what I’m saying, what I’m saying that I need, or what I’m noticing is unfair, because I think for a long time, we were just silently seething.

Totally, it’s the and this really is how it kind of seeped into the work I was already doing where we talk about, like, expectations, and resentments. And like how we’re like trying to navigate all of those things. And I think for so many people they want it to be I like did a whole post about how we have this expectation of like the chill mom, or like the chill wife or the chill girlfriend, where it’s like, they’re just like, go with the flow. And they’re not asking too much of their low maintenance. And that’s something to strive for, when really, it’s just leading to resentment. And it’s like this pipeline to like frustration. And so I think that that’s such an important conversation to have, because you’re right, it’s just been bubbling under the surface. And I think for so many people, they’re realizing that like, not only can they ask for more, but like, they deserve just as much rest and time off. And like all of the things that we think other people deserve after they’ve worked a long day, like women deserve that just as much if not more. So like, I don’t know about you, but the days where like I stay home with my son are like the days where I’m doing a lot of like, parenting like, I’m 10 times more exhausted than if I like, come to a Zoom meeting. I’m like, This feels like what is going on here in comparison to like, the 24/7 You know, mental gymnastics you’re having to do.

And, you know, with the COVID, and people that had to also homeschool their kids, right? And even if that your kids were being taught and like, it’s still like, I mean, that is I read, like I remember seeing people post about that. And I was like, oh my god, I would call my daughter and be like, Thank you for being grown. We would never be and we would just get really dumb for like two years, you know, overwhelming and then still doing their jobs. But that a lot of that fell on women not on the dads.

I think the stat in this might be wrong. So I can fact check myself but I think it’s like a million women had to leave the workforce because of domestic responsibilities during the pandemic. And that number is staggering. And I think it’s so telling of like, okay, what is the expectation of the people lives in like, there’s absolutely no possible way one human can do all the things they were doing pre pandemic, and then also just like willy nilly add on like being educators. And that’s a whole nother conversation about like valuing teachers, but I think it’s like, we’re adding on these things and like have this expectation as if it’s not just like a complete uphill battle every single day. And there was just no, I mean, in consuming the media, obviously, there’s a lot going on, but you’re like, there’s this other pandemic that we’re not discussing that so many women are dealing with in the home and like how it’s impacting all of society, because we’re so much unpaid labor on women that already have so much on their plates.

Are you looking for a speaker for your next event? Are you part of an organization or a company that holds annual sales conferences or leadership events? I’d love to talk about the path to possibility and how to use your pain as fuel for your breakthrough. I leave guests feeling expanded, inspired and ready to break through personal barriers so that they can live big. Reach out to my team at support at Betsy pake.com. or head to my website, Betsy pake.com, for all the details. And I think that all of that came like all of that was bubbling under the surface. So there was the resentment, and then we all had to stay home with our partners. And that’s why I think so many people started getting divorced, right, because then all of a sudden, you couldn’t ignore it, because they were you were stuck in a small environment with them or smaller environment.

Absolutely. And I think that also like speaking to, like a generational change, and like what women felt like they could ask for, I also think, like, sometimes I hear people glamorize, they’re like, people are getting divorced so much more these days, like they don’t take, you know, commitment seriously. And it’s like, no, I bet there’s just a lot of women who probably wanted to get divorced, like, yeah, 30 years ago, or whatever now. And they financially weren’t able to leave. And so that’s why they didn’t leave. It wasn’t like they valued their relationship so much more. It was such a better like, you know, type of commitment. It’s like, now we’re having conversations about like, what does a quality actually look like? And if women had the opportunity to do things on their own, what’s the choice they have, and like that they get to make and I think it’s actually really cool to see how many women are making choices that are focused in like, their needs, their wants, the things that they can prioritize for themselves, because for so long, the narrative has been like you are a giver, your responsibility is to be like a martyr and a giver. And if you’re not constantly giving, then you are not what society would deem a good, quote unquote, woman in whatever role you’re filling. And so I think the fact that that’s changing is actually really beautiful. And I hope that more women are making decisions that younger generations can look at and say like, Oh, I am allowed to ask for help. I am allowed to make requests of the people around me and not feel guilty about those things, and surround myself with people that are supportive of those decisions.

Yeah, yeah. You know, I think also in all of that, the messaging has been like women do it all, like, do all this stuff with the kid, like, do all of that. Don’t say anything, don’t complain, and then just drink your wine. Like, yes, right? The overabundance of mama juice and like wine drinking, I just like if you have to drink the wine every night, then there, it’s time to reevaluate things, you know. And I know that there’s stats about women who are single are happier. And I don’t think it’s because like, men can’t be good partners, I think it’s because of this skewed distribution of power. Right? Because the powerful, what you’re doing is so important. And when if you’re doing the home things, it’s not important, and your your value goes down.

And that same study, and I think it was so eye opening for me. So I want other people to be familiar with it. They did like a ranking of like the happiest types of people in society. The happiest person in society is like a married man who like essentially has an assistant, like someone who’s treated her wealth and stuff. So he’s happy because he gets to live his life, and has everyone taking care of his things. The next happiest is a single female, who like is able to also kind of like make some decisions for herself has small time, autonomy. The next is a single man who’s like, doesn’t have someone taking care of stuff, but like a little bit happier than a woman who’s married and has kids who feels like they are now responsible for everyone else’s happiness before theirs. And so just that ranking is so telling that like, the most happy person is a married man, the least happy person is a married woman that tells us something about the invisible labor and the mental load and burden that women are on and how that’s freeing up men’s time and just devaluing women’s time.

Right? Yeah. So the aim of the book really, then it sounds to me is like to, to reframe that conversation and to make that conversation something that’s really normal like for kids, right? As a kid,

the book exactly like it really the genesis of it was me thinking like, I’m reading to my son every night. This needs to be an educational activity. What he needs to know is whoever in our family is running to the grocery store, picking up the toys, cooking dinner, running the errands, they are working, that is work. It’s not paid, but it is absolutely work that should be valid, valued and acknowledged and is just as valuable as anyone going into an office or like anyone that’s traveling for work. And so women that are doing all of those things, most likely multiple of those things need just as much recognition but more importantly, just as much work. Rest and time, quote unquote, off as their partner. So like, yeah, not necessarily aiming for equal work but aiming for equal rest and recognizing that like you being home, like, I think the thing that just like sends a shiver down my spine is when people are like, Oh, she gets to stay home. Like I’m like, Yeah, what do you mean? She gets to like, this is like it is a full time job. No one. It’s not a luxury. I mean, for some people, I understand what they mean by that statement. implicit in that is like,

this is like a data’s value isn’t as hot. Yes, exactly.

When really, um, like, any day of the week, like anyone that’s a caregiver in my household. I’m like, can we like get you something? Can we bring you lunch? Like, right? Like, yeah, how much of a burden it is to to be responsible for all of those things. And the fact that I can be here, take a lunch break, like have adult conversations, the value I put on that domestic labor is very high. And so I think, making sure that my son or other kids or just other people in our family, like I’m making sure my husband reads that book to our son, and realizing like, all of these roles and responsibilities are just as important as going into an office setting.

Right? Yeah. Yeah. Really, really good. You know, it’s interesting, because like I said, my daughter’s grown out of the house. So but but I think that the idea of like, we’re not supposed to rest, like, there is this like, thing, I think, I have felt this, that like, you’re not supposed to rest. And maybe it was how I was raised to, like, I grew up in Vermont, my dad worked at the university, but he was a farmer, his whole life, he had been a farmer. And so there’s this like, you don’t get to rest. And I know, there have been times where I was doing everything in the house, and my husband was laying on the couch. And I was so mad, but he was, I should have just been doing what he was doing. Like he wasn’t necessarily doing anything wrong. He was tired, and he was resting. And I was like, I’m not gonna rest. And there have been times where I have laid down recently, like in the last like six months. And he I’ve seen him in the kitchen, like I was laying on the couch, saw him in the kitchen. And I said, the story I’m telling myself is that I’m lazy for laying here. But I have to say, and he was like, You’re not lazy, just lay there. It’s fine. I’m just getting a glass of water, like, but it might, I was like, I have to get up and do something. I’m lazy. So I think that like deprogramming is also so important.

It’s the unlearning that’s really what it is. That’s a huge part of this whole process is like educating other people about what women are doing. But then women unlearning those habits. Because I think one thing that I’ve recognized most recently with women of all ages in my family is like, the expectation around things that like, when we think about relaxation, a lot of times we’ll think about like vacation or trips or like escaping, and I for all of the women in my family and all women I know that is a time for them to take on more tasks and more burdens, like who’s planning meals, who’s scheduling the flights, all of these things. And like, if we’re not doing that, again, this feeling of like, we’re guilty, or like who’s going to take care of it or like we start to like, own it without even really like having it, like written or agreed to somewhere. And so I think it really is an unlearning and allowing yourself like the metaphor, I always use them like, Thanksgiving day after everyone’s eating, allow yourself to sit on the couch, don’t go to the sink, don’t yeah, like everyone can bring their own dish to the same or like the folks who cooked can just sit down, but like, it’s almost wired into us to be like, what is the thing I need to do to like, take care of everyone here? Because my role as a woman is caregiver not relax, be praised for the work that I’ve done thus far. Like, yeah, like we you know, we’ve both had partners that sounds like where they’re totally willing to, like, take on some of that load or be helpful and be supportive. But a lot of times we have to course correct ourselves because like, my husband has never asked me to do the dishes ever. In my mind. Do I think that there’s an assumption that we both agreed upon that I do the dishes, yes. And so part of it is also my responsibility and unlearning but also his in like making sure if he observes that behavior, like hey, let’s like you don’t have to do that. Yes, totally. It’s a joint responsibility of like, folks that aren’t in that role learning and educating themselves on like, what that narrative is for us. And then for us to unlearn and realize, like, there is no like, you know, book or golden rule that says all women have to sacrifice themselves in any scenario to take care of everyone else.

Right. Yeah, yeah. And I love that you’re doing this in a book and here’s why. Because I remember when I was growing up the books that I read, I mean, I had some good books believer big book reader. So you know, as you can see from my, my vast library by me, you guys have a fake zoom with, like this most beautiful library. So it’s funny. It is It looks very fancy. Um, but the books that I remember were like, like Princess books, you know what I mean are like Disney things at which I know a lot of people say those gave them a false sense of like what relationships were supposed to be like, I think it gave me like a false sense of how my hair was supposed to be. I was very disappointed when I actually couldn’t ever make my hair look like that. But I think that we, if the world search begins to change, when we start to change our language around things, and part of changing our language around things really is what are the stories that we’re telling and retelling and retelling. And if those stories become different, and then when you are really young, and what I always teach, you know, is our unconscious minds. Until we’re about seven years old, we are saying yes to everything. So everything that’s presented to us we absorb and we think is true. It forms our reality. And so if someone has a book like yours, that they’re reading to a kid who is in the yes, then that yes becomes this new norm that we would, which would really change the world. If women were treated equally had more energy were happier in their partnerships. Families would be happier, kids would be happier, like life would be different. And so that’s why I love this so much. So tell me where people can find the book.

Yeah, so it’s at Barnes and Nobles online and amazon online. I also have it on my site at work well with Kate, but you can I’m feel like a lot of people are, you know, familiar with Amazon and Barnes and Noble. So places, all moms work is the title. And yeah, if you search that in the search bar, it’ll be the first

thing that pops up. Okay, good, good, good. And I’ll make sure to link it in the show notes, too. So this was so fun, such an important conversation. I actually wanted to have you back because I wanted to talk about wanting to talk about the other stuff you do. Because I really do think like the systems and I counter, how I more and more and more in my business. I’m believing in systems. But I also think systems in those things can translate to our everyday lives too. Right? So maybe you will be willing to come back and have another conversation.

Yeah, that’s like the one true like love of my life is like systems and really in every area like the systems in my business, I value just as much as like the systems in my house and like grocery delivery and all the things I sorted by there. So it’s absolutely kind of transcends environment. But I think systems is an amazing topic that we can absolutely dive into.

Okay, good. Thank you so much for being on the show today.

Thank you, Betsy. This was great.

Hey, thanks so much for listening to today’s show. And thank you for sharing the show with your friends. I love when you guys do that. I appreciate it so much. And thank you for leaving me a review on iTunes. I know that it matters because when I go to find a podcast, I always look to see what the reviews are. So it really means a lot to me that you take a minute to like figure out how to even make that happen. Now, if you want to find me find me on social media, I’m usually on Instagram, starting out on Tik Tok. It’s just my name. Betsy pake, and that’s my website to Betsy pake.com. And you can find out all about the work that I do. having me speak for an event that you might be helping to plan or getting trained inside my alchemy Institute. But to make it really easy, if you want me just shoot me a DM, shoot me a direct message on Instagram and I will be at your service. Thanks again for listening. And I will see you all next week.


Meet Betsy!

I'm Betsy Pake!

*Ocean obsessed

*Probably hanging out with my dogs


*Deep thinker

Hey There!

About Betsy

Hi I’m Betsy and I’m a subconscious change expert.
By day you can find me digging deep into the unconscious beliefs and identity of my clients so they can move past self-sabotage and lack of confidence and gain traction in their career and life.